Cruise missiles are pretty good after the rebalance last year.

For instance, your Raven fitted with torps lists 1,000dps (and will mostly get that much attacking battlecruisers and above), whereas your Raven fitted with rapid heavies lists 800dps (and will apply that much against cruisers).

just nerf light missiles and everything will be fine.

This ^^

It's the same problem HML had. CCP when they buffed LML just made them new HML on frigate scale. I said it at that time. The problem is that missiles do constant damage over range, and doing the same damage than LR turrets with short range ammo up to max range without tracking issue is OP.

Except none of that is true. With proper positioning and maneuvering, you can apply full turret dps to small ships moving fast. You cannot do that with missiles. You can headshot a taranis with an oracle. A taranis will take like 5 dps from cruise missiles, no matter how you position yourself. Also LR missile weapons do significant less dps than LR turrets. LR turrets even outdps SR turrets in some cases (ie, beam lasers)

With proper flying, you can hit frigates with oracles even. I was trying to get out from syndicate after that ccp event, and I was camped in by a taranis. I volleyed him to half hull and he immediately warped out.

With a missile ship, say a cruise phoon, he would have just ignored all my damage and easily tackled me.

You can avoid LR turret damage forever too by just orbiting it and you don't even need a special fit for that.

There is a huge difference between what you plan to do or what you woud like to do and what actually happen on the battlefield. That why we talk about eft warrioring and eft-dps : everything is different in an actual fight.

Also, as soon as there is even the smallest transversal velocity, turret dps start to fall. It's simple in fact : tracking work exactly like if you were in falloff, but with 0m/s optimal tracking.

The only way to know your actuel turret dps is to shoot at a static target (not moving) while being immobile too, or to record the time you take from the first shot to killing blow, and then calculating ehp/time.

That's why AC are far better than they look on paper ; and that's the main difference with missiles : with missiles, if you know the fit, you know the dps you will apply.

also makes the LML + XLASB caracal an idea

But if you are relegated to killboard epeen as argument, you are a lot worse than what I expected.

You understand something when you are able to explain it.

PS : and i'll put that simply, because people don't really understand this I think. Consider two RLML with no dps difference between the two (I explain here the burst dps thing and discard the dps nerf) :
- case 1 : RLML with standard reload time : X dps over 70s + 10s reload = Xdps over 80s ;
- case 2 : RLML with front loaded (burst) dps : X*2 dps over 40s + 40s reload = Xdps over 80s.
Not considering the dps nerf, the front loaded dps thing can actually be canceled if you divide your guns in two groups. That way, you retain the old functionality of sustain dps, but you also have a new functionality of burst dps if you need it.

Why making two different thing when one of them can do both things fine ? If the reload thing is so disturbing for you, you can make two groups of weapons and use the second while the first is reloading. It's exactly what people do with the ASB, so it's not something people aren't able to do.

This aversion for the burst ability is just mindboggling considering how anyone pretending knowing anything about pvp should know the value of this burst ability.

On the other hand, you will be more effective against active tanked ennemies and need less time to kill the targets you can kill than before.

You still don't understand that there is actually a nerf of RLML : they lose 20% sustain dps.

3min (BURST DAMAGE) quick check on Sisi, without comments:

RLML Cerberus

Its just the case, as is here, that the playerbase is often split on something, and you're not in the part we agree with.

You are whining that a cruiser fitted with ANTI-FRIG weapons has a hard time against a BS? Even if it is an NPC BS....really?!

Agreed that is a disadvantage... ... but there it is.

Quote mining: a respectable debate tactic.

Now where did I lay that quote by Rise saying that would be the first thing addressed in the point release... never mind, continue to ignore that inconvenient fact.

1. RLML are not some awesome weapons that needed balancing. At worst, give them a 10% reduction in RoF. Done.

The problem as I see it is that missile cruisers have no real weapon system for targets the same size as them unless within web range.

I'm not denying you flying skills, but for most of us poor mortals, reducing transversal for medium LR weapons to track *perfectly* their target is not something as trivial as hiting F1 for your missiles to kill it. Otherwise pulse laser are the only short range weapon to have this kind of range and they don't do more damage than HAM at these ranges.

They have discussed, experimented, and tweaked it internally.

This is now the phase where we get our hands on it to test and comment on. It's just coming closer to release than we have gotten used to lately.

Ok, I did some tests with HAM dps and here are my results.
... ...
PS : I can't wait to see what naysayers will say now. :-)

PAF! I have chased load of omens out of fw plexing in my rifters FFS! Cos the target thought 'I'm an omen I'll murder a rifter!' Then suddenly they can't hit me worth a dam and his drones are dead. Then I usually burn out a module or two that makes it a draw and we warp off. RLM cruiser however is a completely different setup and the only other cruiser setup apart from bonused drone boat that I am wary of engaging in a frigate.

And no I'm not an omen hater, I actually really like the ship but really people need to stop overstating how good these cruisers are at taking out small/fast frigs. It is the player who know what he is doing that can do that not the ship itself apart from RLML ships. Currently they just press F1 and watch the frig explode. and then they go and do the same thing to crusiers as they apply 100% of their damage in 99.99% of cases to a cruiser regardless of what the cruiser tries to do.

The new version will still see a RLML murder the typical frig but won't be able to scale the results up to a target the weapons were NOT designed to take on. And HAM Caracal is one of the best RLML carcal killers out there. Seen it many mnay times in FW.

I think you'll also find that this system will deliver quite a bit more actual damage to smaller targets that a standard fit cruiser will in most circumstances.

The HVM and HAM work fine for killing cruisers.

To be perfectly frank it's not that high a priority. It needs to be done, but the way these encounters usually play out is you don't switch missiles types in the middle of combat.

How about implementing two firing mode for these launchers? Just like how bastion mod is activated, these launchers can activate their "rapid" mode with these new stats including 40 sec reload time penalty, while the "classic" mode is there if anyone wants to switch to and have the previous rapid launchers stats. I think everyone will be happy this way.

well damn.... i appear to have somehow cut the 20% damage nerf almost in half! you might think people were exaggerating numbers rather than checking them up and considering that there might be some merit in this concept. but that would imply that people are frothing rather than thinking wouldn't it?

the concern about having teribly difficultly adjusting missile type to your targets has, after all, been anknowledged by CCP rise and with luck we should see a solution to this problem...

I think everyone is only thinking PVP and very short fights.

Not true. People that expect to use moderately to very large gangs will like it. 50 tengus wil be able to dish impressive damage with great application .

The problems resides in solo and very small gangs where you were the only dps with the other guy being tackle or ewar.

PS... No Tengu pilot will fit these for solo work and keep them as a primary weapon, and I don't know what game you're playing, but where is this 50 Tengu fleet? If they did exist, why in the world would they fit these piles when they can just fit HAMS and own.

What? HAM's hit a cruiser at full speed for around 70% damage, although it goes down to about 50% with a overheated mwd.

HAM's have their flaws but saying that they can't apply damage to cruisers is just plain wrong.

I *proved* you wrong with numbers. Come back to reality please.

Goodbye caracal.
Hello crow.

As I said, for simple mortals there is also web and TP which can help you apply more damage, be it with turrets or missiles.

Squeezing twice the damage into a smaller window of time, fewer ships needed, reload timer occurring when you will be either kiting or warping to reposition anyway, lure out another victim, rinse and repeat... think about it.

However, at least the current singularity implementation for RLML shows another significant nerf:

Powergrid usage increased from 47.7 to 69.3 per launcher with my skills, that is an increase by 45%.

Please check and reconfirm, still can't really believe it.

Its 69.3 with perfect skillz. I told this 2-3 days ago in this thread already, 1k comments earlier or so..

Drink the Kool-Aid and switch to turrets.

TBH I'm hoping someone else at CCP will read this stuff, realize how dumb this idea is, and take the matter out of Rise's hands.

Just wait and see when it HITS the game, because most players have not seen this thread yet. THe rage on general discussion forums will be epic.

Also, this concept basically puts all Caldari missile boats at a disadvantage because they're only bonused for kinetic damage.

And also i think the entire point here is that Rapid launchers aren't supposed to be a primary weapon system, their supposed to be a niche thing.

HAMs however are not niche at all, i can't really see how you would think that. They have really good range for short range weapons. Applies dps pretty damn decently, especially on webbed targets and in many cases has selectable damage types..

are they perfect in all situations? No they will struggle against many things.. but so do all the other medium weapon systems.

You're talking about this like the other medium weapons have great application..

Blasters have no range what so ever. Pulses have terrible tracking. Ac's are relatively low dps and not great at range.

And i cannot think of a single HAM ship that doesn't have the mids to fit a tank and a web... Yes HAM's struggle to apply damage to some targets.. but so do the other weapon systems.. even more so in some cases..

A webbed ab frigate will still take between 15-25% damage from hams. Even at full speed.

A pulse laser ship won't be able to do 1% damage to a frigate orbiting it at 40% speed. But instead its better at killing said frigate at its optimal. Its a trade off.

HAM have enough application that you can kill a frigate if you know how. You cannot do in the same way with turrets. :D
I too master the "always true" statement ; butI know it's a poor way to argue.

In France, we have an expression which translate into "with 'if's we could put Paris into a bottle."
How much damage will your turrets do to a closely orbiting frigate ? Answer is 0 and 5 is still superior to 0.

If everything is done properly, HAM Cerb will do a lot of damage to a fully tackled and painted Merlin. This is another "if everything is perfect" scenario for turrets against a "if everything goes wrong" for missiles ; in other words, an always true statement.

But hams and hml aren't meant for defrigging...

You mention hams underperforming on small quick moving targets in your last paragraph. Seems to indicate frigate to me. Of course hams are **** if the target isn't scrammed or web. Maybe I'm misunderstanding your point, or didnt feel like reading 70 pages to find it. but the general consensus that I'm reading is ppl don't want any sacrifice when fitting hams or hml like it is with rlml. Just fill lows with bcus and shoot. Then moan when hams/hml suck at applying dps because they do the same thing on a ham or hml fit. No rigors/flares tps/web or hell, even crash booster. Yea.. that's what happens when you go for max paper dps.

Worst case scenario? You should factor in the more common scenarios into the fits.

I must assume that by "If you know how" you mean if you have them at 20-30 km away from you and you're using scorch.

Because even with dual webs a zealot cannot track a close orbiting KESTREL, let alone a fast frig.

... What?

Negate transversal.. on a frigate.. while scrammed and webbed in a cruiser?

10 km? why would a frig stay at that range with you? what? wha?

I'm out, I'm ooout.

I second this, and implement 10 second ammo switch

Remember how i was comparing how the ships did in certain situations?

And i was saying how beams were better when not scrammed/webbed and missiles were better when you were?

... Yes that...

Jesus who in his right mind is going to fit a module that you can't use for 50% of the time?????

40s 0 DPS... very usefull mod...

As I've said before, this delay creates new kimds of decision making, it creates spikes of tension in fights rather than a flat amount of damage moving around...

Wouldn't their perceived problem be much easier to fix by adding in more reloads instead of one long one.
So a RLML would fire 5-7 missiles, reload for 1-2 second and fire again???

They changed the bonus on the CERBERUS as well to exclude Light Missiles for the ROF bonus.

Why not just put a 60 second aggression timer on missile pilots...

The OP issues seemed to be that they have great range, their explosion radius was too small and their explosion velocity was too high.

Would a 20-second reload time make them too OP, or would a combination of a 30-second reload time and increased ammunition be better?

You're miasing the point which is that rlml apply their damage nearly perfectly to every target regardless of speed. While their dps is relatively low at only 280 or so dps for a cruiser. . they are pushing that dps to 50km and hitting for full damage pretty much everu time. Now take heavy missiles and literally double the dps... 900dps over 50s is 45k damage dealt.. and the application of said damage is very good too...

TL;DR
Cant change damage during fight => Death

Only an idiot would use them for anything except for specific target pirating.

1. RLMLs were getting a substantial nerf. -or-
2. Something else.

If you make sure you've done your homework before you go out hunting and have loaded up missiles with the right damage type, this is perfect!
Some fights don't even last 18-23 seconds, so why worry about having to reload? This is hit-and-run at it's best. I love it!

And nobody ansered the important question which, IMO, lead to these swarm launchers : provided HML will be fixed, how do you balance HML and HAM vs RLML if they have the same mechanic ?

Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Explosion velocity: 190*
Explosion radius: 75*

Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Explosion velocity: 150*
Explosion radius: 120*

Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile
Explosion velocity: 210*
Explosion radius: 60*

Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Explosion velocity: 165*
Explosion radius: 100*

--
*with good skills and implants

Do you think it might of been a help to include the fact PG for RLML's would go from 53 to 77 meaning you now not only have less overall DPS but need to gimp the rest of your fit to even use them.. Way to screw up one of the few weapons you could use without all 5's.

Current rlml's are also dumb, but kinda interesting dumb.

Just 1 somewhat important thing you missed.. Light missiles are NOT affected by speed or sig radius. They hit for the same damage be it an AB frigate or an MWDing battleship.

Caracal with 28kehp is with scram+web. Full tank (one prop + one tackle) is 37kehp. That might be a bit less now with fitting change of RLML.

Prior to Rubicon I could reasonably and confidently fly a caracal with my skills, now I can't.

As I said in a previous post.. If you have max skills RLML caracal may work for you, if not.. Don't fly it alone as you will die.

'CCP GIB ME AWSUM SHIP BUTT I WANT MOAR AWSUM AND MAKE FOTM SHIP SUPER OP BECUZ IT IZ FOTM SHIP'.

Stop spamming this thread and the rest of the forums.

I'm having a great time with the new launcher mechanic.

Guess I have "Adapted".

So people who can adapt to change and are giving positive feedback to these new weapons should just cancel their subscription and GTFO

The only issue with these weapons right now is ammo switching. This is currently being worked on and I hope to see it in 1.1

This is so sad.
My "Arbalest" RLML now have a load of 16 (not 18, no, just 16) missiles.
Tried them in PVE, but they are ridiculous.
RIP, Caracal.

Let me know what you think and keep in mind that numbers may be adjusted slightly as we continue to test.

Not armor caracal.. don't just jump to the most ******** thing you can think of. Use your brain. If you're mainly fighting frigs, why not lsb w/ cap booster. Resist rigs..etc.

Reporting asb as a dps tank is sort of misleading anyway

You need a web or you won't be applying a lot of your damage. Stop trying to over tank and accept that you need more than tank and dps.

You might feel differently if most of your skills were tied up in Caldari and Missiles.

I'm in my RLML "frig killer" Caracal , someone comes in with a Vexor... if he tackles me on a gate he can do 700dps out to 20km with 200mm rails and still have a better tank; RIP frig killer caracal but obviously this is not what caracals are for anyway. However if I get to dictate range and try to kite him instead, he can still do 600dps because most of it comes from drones. Try to shoot his drones he'll just keep rotating them, and when it comes to reload time I'm no longer applying my already inferior dps, but he can maintain his dps with constancy. Is he helpless if a frig comes along, because Caracals the only cruiser that can kill frigs? nope he can use Warrior 2's and he'll still have 428dps that's enough to pop most frigates in seconds, hell it's enough to pop most caracals in seconds. So he's better at brawling, better at kiting, better tank, better at killing frigates and destroyers, better at killing cruisers, better in gangs... so what is the point of flying a caracal? What's a Drake for? and I don't know much about HAC's but I'm sure if I look into them I'll find the Caldari variants are bottom of the pile there too, even the best pirate ships are for Gallente/Minmattar pilots. I made a lot of Isk and I never know what ship to buy with it because all the ones I trained for turned out to be rubbish. I got a Drake Navy Issue and I was happy enough with that until my friend who started the same time as me shared a mission in his standard Brutix, and was getting double my DPS at similar range, he was able to kill all sizes of targets far faster than me, he wasn't even in a Navy Brutix.

Regardless of these changes I decided to switch to Gallente anyway so I'll have some decent options after months wasted training for Caldari, it's just unfair and I don't understand why they have to make it even worse for Caldari pilots than it already is, they seem to want Caldari ships to be a class below everyone else.

But let's say she is right ; can you please enumerate all these inferior caldari ships which can't hold a candle to gallente ones ? I am really curious to learn about these caldari ships which don't stand a chance against gallente ones.

So again, as you say it, it's more the weapon system than anything else, and HAM hit cruisers fine...

PS : it's always a question of the right tool for the right job. If you always need in your face facemelting dps, then fly gallente and don't try to do it with caldari ships. But don't ask gallente ships to shoot too far, because they're clearly not good at that.

So you'd prefer your launchers to be droped in space, not move and be destroyable ?

40 second reload time is stupid for such a low charge yeald. 20 seconds would be more "balanced" i feel.

how about larger charge for the launcher and a skill to lower the launchers reload time by 1 second per level.. maybe an x3 or x4 skill and then a secondary for an addional 1 second per level.. at x5 or x6 so both skills take you to 30 second reload..

or simply 1 skill for -2 seconds per level to 30 seconds.. and/or ship bonus to lower reload time too?

How about we just get back the original RLML ? It wasn't really broke to start with. Now we're trying to fix something that the bulk of this thread didn't want, but we got lumped with anyway.

As previously suggested, this new module would have been better introduced as its own module, allowing us to choose between this and the original RLML and the new 'Burst' Module. If people are fine with the 40 second reload, they would use it. If not, they could use a module that worked beautifully for over 10 years without any major complaints.

The issue that I am fast developing is the ego, disrespect and general unpleasantness of CCP Rise. He has been disrespectful to players both in this thread and in the past..

... if you were going to do a temporary fix on the base values, that it needed to exhibit finesse and surgical precision. Not the blunt force trauma of swinging a mace like a brute, which is what I am beginning to think Rise is.

A cookie cutter plate/MAAR thorax mititgates 33% of faction HAM damage when MWDing, rising to 54% if it overloads its MWD (which, you know, it would do if it were trying to run something down). If it's linked, it mitigates just under 75% of the incoming HAM dps.

36kehp is RLML Caracal with warp disruptor only.

I only saw the comments (can't see the video right now) saying that was scourge fury LM vs a Hawk...

There's nothing to add to this honestly, it says everything about your expectations.

PS : BTW it's rather easy to make a video of an AF tackling and murdering a cruiser. In fact, a turret cruiser tackled by an AF barely have any chance to survive.

Why were you loaded with scourge fury here ? And why did you take a RLML Caracal in the first place ?

Confirming I just sold my T2 RLMLs and replaced them with T2 LMLs. They fire 2s slower and cost 4x more but I'm looking forward to the improved performance just the same.

I think the solution is to increase the ammunition capacity to 1/3 of the original (ie: 30 for Faction RLML and 45 for Faction RHML). Then the 40-second reload/ammunition swap isn't as much of a mitigating factor. Thoughts?

That's his get out of jail free card, he won't play that unless he's forced to by some kind of player backlash. All he's doing is seeing how much he can get away with and when he pushes it too far he can just throw his hands up and back track a little, but he has nothing to worry about. Too many people would rather crawl up his arse to live in his intestines than ever disagree with him on anything important, it's much easier to just dump missiles and move into a different doctrine for most, so that's what they'll do.

Could you imagine a HAM drake without badass missile skills ~shudder~ you would need hours to do a level 3

Torps have bigger problems than the damage application, although that is probably the biggest problem and pervades the entire system of missiles beyond the light/rocket level. Torps either need 20-25% more range, or they need about 10% higher damage output...

Reload of 30 s and clip size of 24 gives an increase on old RLML sustained damage of 2%.

I don't think that'll happen either. With the burst damage being 58% greater than old RLML, I don't think we can expect anything but a decrease in sustained DPS. For example, to get a decrease in sustained DPS of 4%, you'd need clip 20 and 30 s reload.

Yeah I'd take this either, but with a heavy target painter/script instead of just buffing sig radius, because I do think missiles should need to change their fit to get better dps against frigs, and that improved dps should only be effective in the 25km overheated disruptor radius..

Yes, Command ships were such a hit in Odyssey... and Marauders in Rubicon. Now a tentative nerf to Serpentis webs.

I see that some places, especially in this thread, there's a lot of frustration still about the change in general but the majority of it is lacking any substance except for the simple claim that 40 seconds of reload isn't fun.

I'm still trying to gather as much info as possible and if you guys are using it and are able to say it's not fun (separate from it not being good, which is a different issue and could be corrected with numbers tweaks like 30s reload or more ammo per launcher) please post and let me know.

I mean if this is actually the root of a lot of the problem then that's a different issue that we need to address. I'm not totally sure it is, but I want to take a hard look at HML before the point release and make sure we're okay with where we're at. If that needs a tweak then we should be doing that, not focusing on RLML as a solution to a HML problem.

3 webs a scram and 5 target painters will get you to about 45% dps against a frig

I challenge anyone to go do a comparison in EFT of Fury Light Missiles and Precision Heavy Missiles (without using TPs, rigs, or webs). It's laughable. The "precise" heavy missiles do way less damage to slow frigs and fast cruisers than the "imprecise" light missiles do. I mean we are talking double the damage in many cases. You would think cruiser-sized weapons that are supposed to be precise would have good damage application against pretty much all cruisers wouldn't you?

Definitely helps me feel good about not finishing training for the Tengu...cause that is horrible. My Proteus is much much better than that. No offense intended Niena!

... a 1b tengu had like what 500 dps (perhaps uber skilled guys with implants could get to the 700 barrier...

... and drones should be made to match the size of hull they are being used on so that light drones can not be put in cruisers.

There's evidence pointing in a lot of directions, and I still like the idea of doing something different more than sticking with something very safe and normal. The evidence that says it is fun, since I'm sure you will be skeptical of that claim' is both direct (my experience and the experience of some players posting here or talking with me directly) and also the existence of similar mechanics in other games. War Thunder for instance has this mechanic on every single plane in the game and people seem to find that very fun generally.

why dont go further and make bcus giving overall boost to missiles? rof, dmg, expl velocity and radius at same time? expl velocity and radius in a apropriate amount to prevent being too much when stacking 3 bcu or more at the same time. (wow which an simple and epic idea)

propose something else then

I imagine this has already been suggested in 119 pages of people screaming over this

but why can't Rise do the simple thing: Introduce this change as a completely new missile weapon system in the cruiser and BS class sizes, and leave the traditional Rapid Missile system alone?

It would be a very simple thing for CCP then to compare usage 3 months from now.
Eve players are very quick to adapt to a better system.

Rise would know very quickly if the new system is gaining traction, or whether it should be scrapped after a 3 month trial alongside the original system.

And what has been Rise's response to running the 2 systems in parallel?

Has he responded, or does his hubris get in the way of even discussing the possibility?

Just sad...actually more than sad. This guy and fozzie have just about as much impact on gameplay as anyone else at CCP (including the game designers who hand out high sec PoCo's to the goons), yet act so poorly when faced with the fact that not all their ideas are genius.

Of course that's not true for the other cruiser which will have a good transversale to hit it whereas the second Caracal will not do any more dps than the first.

That's the caracteristic of missiles : they are reliable. They will hit the same target for the same damage every time. If you are too pro for reliability to matter, use turrets. That's as simple as that.

Also, just put rigor rigs on your missiles ships. They are *always* better than than flare. As a missile user you should know that.

There are stacking penalties for multiple rigs (Flare or Rigor) of the same type.

That is a fair point, but Heavy Missiles shouldn't hit a Cruiser for so little damage either. And I also agree, Torpedos are, without question, the worst weapon platform in the game.

Again, three rigors are better than two rigors and a flare. As previously stated, the missile mechanics for rigors offset target velocity when the explosion radius is smaller than the target signature. You don't get a signature bonus for flares if the explosion velocity is greater than target velocity. Rigor, rigor, rigor...

Is that showing the actual application though?

Bouh's been posting in this thread since the beginning....

I'm actually kind of worried that CCP may hire him. They seem to like that attitude in their balance department.

What is currently, IMHO the issue, is that the Light Missiles that they fire, are too accurate with Precisions. We've already shown that with the other missiles and guns, that it takes at least a target painter for any of them to hit perfect (although some gun ships can regardless). As it stands, that isn't the case with Light Precision Missiles, they will hit almost all targets for full damage without a TP.

I'm going to throw out an idea.. It may be stupid but I'd like someone who could do the numbers to look at it.

I have always considered RLML as a light HAM type weapon, high damage close range.

Caldari Navy Light Missile;

Attributes. . . . . . . . Current. . . . . New
Max Velocity. . . . . . 3750... . . . . .3650
Max Flight Time. . . . . .5s. . . . . . . . .3 s
Exp Velocity. . . . . . .170m/s. . . .150m/s
Exp Radius. . . . . . . . 40 m. . . . . . .40 m
Damage. . . . . . . . . . .95hp. . . . . . .95hp


Fury Light Missile;

Attributes. . . . . . . . Current. . . . . . New
Max Velocity. . . . . . .3750. . . . . . . .3650
Max Flight Time. . . . .3.75s . . . . . . .2.75s
Exp Velocity. . . . . . . 143m/s. . . . . 135m/s
Exp Radius. . . . . . . . .69m. . . . . . . . 55m
Damage. . . . . . . . . . . .116hp . . . . . . .118hp

Precision Light Missile;

Attributes. . . . . . . . .Current. . . . . . New
Max Velocity. . . . . . . .3750. . . . . . . .3650
Max Flight Time. . . . . .2.5s. . . . . . . .2.25s
Exp Velocity. . . . . . . . .204m/s. . . . .204m/s
Exp Radius. . . . . . . . . ..25m. . . . . . . .20m
Damage. . . . . . . . . . . . .83hp. . . . . . . .85hp


Now before the flaming starts,
I looked at this from the point of view, Light missiles, not the RLML were a little op.

The frigate you are shooting at don't have the hp of a cruiser. With 420dps, the executioner will die in 10 seconds.

[Caracal, lolanti-frig]

And of your 146dps outside of web range, 100 come from the drones... Exactly as I said a Vexor would be a lot better than the Thorax to hunt frigates. You didn't show that railguns were better than HML to shoot frigates but that drones were and I never denied that.

- nerf rockets expl radius 20 is OP 30 odd on rage is OP too and nerf their range
- nerf light missiles damage a little and nerf its expl radius a bit along with a range nerf
- nerf HAM range it shouldn't be the same as torps its usually 50% scaling of sizes from small - large

Again, RLML are NOT a solo weapon anymore. They are frigate interdiction weapons, and they will be very good at that.

Example : you are in a cruiser fleet and one get tackled by a fast tackler, but the RLML cruiser in the fleet will fastly get rid of him and the fleet will safely go away.
In the same kind of fleet, the RLML ship will also be able to shoot at any frigate (tackle, EWAR...) an ennemy fleet could have, removing them from the field.

RLML and RHML are not supposed to obsolete other missiles systems and a lot of complaints here aimed the fact that they can't replace other weapons effectively, but they should not do that. There should be use cases for all of them, but for most situations involving low numbers in point range, HAM should be the weapon of choice, exactly like short range turrets are the weapons of choice for turret point range engagements.

In general, metrics show that missiles have certainly come down in popularity some since HML changes but overall they are still performing well.

My attempt with Rapid Heavies on a Geddon was disappointing..

...
This is literally just a thought I wanted to share and is off topic so flame on if you wish.

Is there some Null Blob Doctrine for their mega fleet battles that makes missiles OP?

I know there are some thoughts by many people on the Tengu, but missiles should not be useless overall because one ship is OP. Improve the missiles. Nerf the Tengu.

Buoh, you might want to look through the top 20 PvP pilots ship use. Almost all of them are using guns, and most of them are flying gallente. Given all that I and other have said to you, surely this is a crazy unfortunate coincidence surely? lol

That is fascinating. But it also interesting given how high the Tengu use is (although it can use Blasters).

Regarding what I said about improving Heavy Missiles and nerfing the Tengu, I'm talking about tweaking the bonuses it would get with missiles. If the missiles themselves hit better - which is the fundamental issue with Heavy Missiles - then sure it makes sense that the Tengu would still be just as powerful, even with a tweak to its bonuses? So in fairness, its not a nerf that would stop their use, but just keep it where it is at.

So essentially what I'm suggesting is that Heavy Missiles are improved for all missile ships (because they are woeful at present), vs. stopping the Tengu becoming even more powerful.

This is the heart of what makes good balancing, surely?

I just bought a cerb about 2 weeks before they ruined it now im desperately trying to make HAMs work on it sigh.

Hu ? When did they ruined HAM ? In 3 years I only saw them buffed...

He could have been bad. Buts its a 300dps frigate, not your run of the mill rifter. I was getting 150-200 alpha hits on him as he was orbiting.

My scyfi does 336dps with current fit, the scyfi is better suited for HML because of alpha.gets up to 1200-1300 per volley.

and typhoon fleet issue - has bonus to heavy missile! not RHML . Is this a typo ?

Missile ships will always be easy to use in pve missions, and in frigs we have the Hawk and Condor which are good for pvp.

We're also getting some good experience flying with them on our own player characters in a live environment.

If you look at Light Missiles, they are overall fine - but the Precisions will hit practically everything at 100% damage. Even an AB fit Frigate.

If you add in a target painter or webber, then everything - even with an AB is shiny as far as light precision missiles are concerned and you can expect to hit your targets perfectly 100% of the time.

The only challenging target I've so far faced outnumbered me three to one, but I also killed a Caracal which went down very fast.

If anyone can fly these, I'd love to test them on Sisi!

On the subject of cruise missiles, the recent buff took them well into the realm of OPness. I think the reason we don't see large fleets of them has more to do with inertia than facts.

turret users and their OPenis envy, it would be cute if ccp didn't take their whinging so seriously

Fact, HEavy missiles and hams should NOT apply full damage to an AB cruiser. And should not do even a reasonable ammount of damage against a minmatar (smaller) cruisers.. with nanos... And shoudl do VERY LITTLE damage agaisnt that same cruiser using faction AB and maxed gang links.

Peopel take effort on their ships. You cannot demand that your simple drake fitting plain missile launchers simply ignore these effort placed on their ships.

Right now I'm just focusing on a RHML -+ HML comparisons as the consensus seems to be that HAMs are ok for the moment.

The previous adjustment I made gave HAMs a 60-100% buff against smaller ships (only), and about 10-20% against cruiser-size vessels. I don't think it was that well-received...

2 mid slots shield tank is fine BTW when you factor in everything else : with shield, you don't lose speed, and there is no cruiser both as fast as the Caracal and more resilient than him. Just check it : armor attack cruiser with more than a 800mm plate will be very slow, and a Thorax with 800mm plate, DCU + EANM + adaptive plating (4slots) have less ehp than your Caracal with DCU+LSE+invuln (3slots). Also, such a Thorax will only have 400 blaster dps, same as your HAML Caracal, but with three times less range and have to deal with tracking. You don't need 35kehp on your attack cruiser for it to be useful, moreover when you have plenty of range and speed.

Personally, I don't think there is anything really wrong with the RLML's. They do exactly what they are intended to do, they launch large missiles... Rapidly. I'm getting the feeling that people are simply bummed they aren't ridiculously over-powered as per their expectations. Think about it, if a large missile did X, then MORE large missiles is only going to do X time X. It's not exponential.

Train up Target Navigation Prediction and get over it.

People, please, if you don't have something relevant to say on the subject, then go post on the Blizzard forums where no-one cares.

Well I actually realize now that damage bonused hull can fit smaller launchers and have bonuses to them, something turrets can't do and which would be exactly what people here want their RLML to do.

The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence...

You look like you basicaly hate caldari ships in all but graphics. You should fly other ships in fact if you can't see the strength of caldari ships.

You see ? That's exactly what I'm saying : you underlined each thing the ScytheNI had better than the ONI and forgot everything else.

ONI have more hp, 6 ******* mid slots, far better sensors, better capacitor and a second bonus useful to missiles, but what are these useful for ? Do I really need to explain how good is a 6th mid slot ? No other cruiser in game have as many of them...

And just to remind you : caldari focus on range, tough shield and fleet warfare. Minmatar focus on guerilla warfare, speed and versatility.

And here you just clearly showed that you don't care about resilience or range but speed and versatility (because the ONI is already a very fast ship, but the ScytheFI is just even more, because minmatar).

Hence, caldari are clearly not a race for you, you should flee them and never look back. It's just an advice of course, but continuing to bother with caldari with only makes you cry on the forum to make them more minmatarish.

Can everyone please stop quoting B---? I have block on for a reason...

That's exactly what I'm saying. You don't have any use for everything the ONI have to offer. Does that mean you are wrong or stupid ? Not at all ! But there's not only your way of playing in the game, and what I'm saying is that all those things you look with disdain can be very useful and even far more useful than everything the Scythe FI can bring on the table.

That is a problem of viewpoint : what is useful in some situations is useless in others and vice versa. The ONI is useless to you, but in some situations you obviously don't imagin, it's far better than the Scythe FI.

I actually know what bouh was referencing in the ONI vs ScyFI. The ScyFI is meant to be fast, but isn't very tanky. The ONI is slower, but can be a lot tankier. Not a hard concept.

Almost the same bonuses, but the good news is, they both provide damage bonuses which actually makes RLML relevant to the hull. If you say "but its only kinetic, i say BS, you're still getting a 5% bonus to dmg, which is better than the caracal for RLML.

The other nice thing about the ONI is velocity bonus. Makes precisions hit out to 32 KM. The ScyFI i have to get upclose and personal at 18KM.

I'll just leave this here for people that think the ONI is useless...

Also, pyfa says velocity bonus apply to light missiles in RLML.

pyfa does not say that, neither does EVE - and the actual ship does not reflect any change - so I'm not sure why this is being discussed. None of this changes the practical applications for RLMLs...

Back to what I was saying : you don't care about anything caldari have to offer.

I'm not sure that switching to a frigate-class weapon system is an improvement.

Just a brief PvE blurb on RHMLs... If you can fit a few of these to a cruiser or battlecruiser that gives damage bonuses, these are worthwhile considering. Faction launchers hold 26 rounds, and without a ROF bonus to more rapidly diminish these do come in handy for an initial mission "burst".

Then you need to decide, is another 17 days for 2% damage really worth it or will I just train another weapon system in that time that works well at lvl 4 specialization.

The RLML are actually hilariously overpowered when fitted/flown right. Still not sure how missile users haven't been able to kill frigs with, i'm assuming much higher missile SP than me, using RLML. Then downtalk them like they're uselss..

The game is not made for your convenience. You do with the tools you have. It's never convenient for example to see our drones killed, yet that happen and we deal with it.

This completely ignore the fact that for the first 50s you were on field you did two times better job than if you had a weapon without long reload.

You do in 50s the job you would be doing in 110s.

Please tell me you see the value of such a thing or I'll need to demonstrate you how not being on field is safer than being on field and that'll make me look condescending. :-(

I'm curious as to how you intend to do that. Really. And don't forget your main weapons are still there. Did you test HAML at least, as you like first hand experience ?

Basicaly, yes..

Are people seriously implying that all missiles are bad, or just the new terrible rapid launchers?

I feel torpedoes could use reduced charge size. It's not possible to actually kill anything with them before reloading, and you can't carry any at all in cargo because they're so huge. Also expensive, for some reason.

I'd be down for an all-around buff on heavy missiles, basically undoing the nerf, but I'd like to see it at the same time as CCP de-sillying the fitting requirements - heavies and cruises should probably use lots of fitting like light missiles and all the other LR weapons in the game. It's all backwards right now, and I don't get why.

I like how you mention "easy" frig. Like somehow, the only frigates that die to RLML are the ones that suck.

Nice try on attempting to downplay my point though. I kill most frigs within 5-8 missiles.

So because my play style is not "preferred", it makes the weapon system useless?

1. uh huh? Suppose you should check my KM post.. i see a dram there, from what every missile user is stating here, an a/b fit frigate is impossible to kill with RLML within 1 clip.. think my experience begs to differ.

2. I've yet to have a frigate live through my RLML unless i miss point, or he jumps through a gate

3. Yet, you still forget about the ONI for RLML, when i've clearly shown its still more than capable. If a Bellicose can kill a frig, an ONI, and for that matter a caracal, can as well with RLML. So, ScyFI = ONI, and Caracal = Bellicose. Those are your equivalents. Minmatar do have a better ship for RHML, but for anti-frigate, they're about the same. If i had caldari cruiser trained, i would gladly get kills to prove my point.

I like how you mention "easy" frig. Like somehow, the only frigates that die to RLML are the ones that suck. Nice try on attempting to downplay my point though. I kill most frigs within 5-8 missiles. With a full clip, that means i could get 2-3 frigs total before warping off, which is pretty decent.

I will stay on field for however long its safe. Otherwise I warp off and reload.

In related news, our new survey on Rubicon has no reference to the RHML/RLML "features" introduced in Rubicon. I'm shocked they don't want to get game-wide feedback on this feature... maybe they're afraid of what they'd find out? I'm not sure how CCP Rise and CCP Fozzie will be looking at metrics if it isn't included in the survey.

depending on if there is an incoming blob or not. Or, if some of the bigger, brawlier ships are within warping distance to their frigate buddies, then i may warp off.

This is not quite the same since light drones can be killed very quickly by skilled frigate pilots. Missile launchers cannot.

...to kill a vexor with a frigate requires a great deal of skill and the right fit.

http://eve-kill.net/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=1574542
That's not what your killboard is saying.